[rdfweb-dev] RE: Timeout. Chill.

Jonathan Greensted jonathan.greensted at sentient.co.uk
Fri Aug 8 14:58:46 UTC 2003


We're chilling!

J.
-----Original Message-----
    From: "Dan Brickley"<danbri at w3.org>
    Sent: 08/08/03 12:12:31
    To: "Jim Ley"<jim at jibbering.com>
    Cc: "jonathan.greensted at sentient.co.uk"<jonathan.greensted at sentient.co.=
uk>, "rdfweb-dev at vapours.rdfweb.org"<rdfweb-dev at vapours.rdfweb.org>
    Subject: Timeout. Chill.
    =

    [snip].
    =

    A few comments.
    =

    Firstly, everyone, chill out. Everyone. Please.
    =

    Secondly, what we have here is perfectly natural, it's the growing pains
    often seen when a small group's work gets thrust into the limelight, an=
d =

    shared assumptions and context suddenly need making explicit. As I hope
    you've noticed I've been spending a lot of my spare non-work time on pr=
ogressing
    that in the last couple of months.
    =

    What we haven't done enough of is talk about some of the ways in which
    we've been experimenting with FOAF, and about the social implications of
    RDF's semistructured design. In short, mixed namespace tag-soup in XML =
is a =

    chaotic jungle. In RDF, it has just that much structure imposed on it b=
y the =

    over-arching framework; enough structure, in fact, to allow us to
    experiment with new FOAF property ideas by chucking experimental
    properties and classes into FOAF files and getting the feel for how they
    work. Now this worked quite well for us for a while, and we could alway=
s =

    check the scutterstats to see (a) which properties were out there, (b)
    which ones had caught on, which had flopped. =

    =

    There is a whole layer of RDF infrastructure which is perfectly happy
    with content changes at this level, just as whole layers of XML
    infrastructure don't care at all if the words you use between your tags =

    change, but freak out if the words between '<' and '>' change. The RDF =

    harvesters ('scutters') we use don't care what tags are used, just so
    long as they're in RDF syntax so we can extract statements encoded as
    triples and merge them into our data stores. The data merging
    conventions we use ('smushing', owl:InverseFunctionalProperty etc) also
    don't care how we describe things, but are capable of using schema
    annotations so that newly-deployed identifying properties can 'just
    work' without need for software updates. =

    =

    All this is good: we want to  describe more kinds of thing (Classes), =

    attributes of those things and relationships amongst those things (Prop=
erties) =

    than we can anticipate in one big up-front schema design. See
    http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BigDesignUpFront for software engineering reason=
s why =

    trying to design everything in one go is problematic. These arguments
    hold all the stronger in a distributed Web environment where multiple
    parties are working to different schedules, agendas, goals. One schema
    does not fit all, so RDF's free-wheeling schema mixing approach is a
    natural fit for the Web environment.
    =

    But yes, freedom inevitably brings flexibility, and the 'how the hell do
    I code to this' reaction is not an uncommon one. Perhaps think of it
    this way: the expressive freedom provided by RDF provides a platform
    where we can reach tighter agreements (perhaps in sub-communities)
    without having to have one big schema design committee determine the
    one-size that fits all. People that want to use FOAF for homepage
    searching, school reunion mapping, opensource collaboration support, bl=
ogroll
    interchange, addressbook interchange, photo description, spam filtering=
, =

    trust applications, Weblog discovery, file sharing, collaborative
    filtering, ... all have different (though related) agendas. I spend my =

    working life in formal standardisation processes, and wouldn't wish on
    anyone the task of picking 'the' schema for person description. Data
    mixing and vocabulary combination are essential here, and not something
    to be thrown away lightly.
    =

    Jim, I remember not so long ago your being quite vocally an RDF skeptic
    on various mailing lists. I wonder if you could comment on what made it
    'click' for you?
    =

    Julian, w.r.t. RDF being a "write only" format, I think that's an
    overstatement, in fact it's (in my experience) almost backwards. I've
    come to think of RDF as being somewhat akin to an SQL 'view'. In SQL
    systems you can take multiple tables of information and project them
    into a single, virtual composite which draws info from several sources
    and hooks them together based on uniquely identifying pieces of content.
    In RDF, as with SQL views, we have this sense of RDF as an aggregation =

    mechanism that is good for taking (and merging) scattered info. But just
    as with SQL views, with RDF you often get into a situation where having =

    pulled a single RDF graph by merging from multiple sources, you wonder
    what doing an update/insert into that graph would mean. So RDF (at leas=
t =

    in FOAF-related contexts) often gets used in a search-engine like way.
    You hoard up a whole bunch of it, then do some canonicalisation on the =

    merged dataset (most essentially with respect to merging
    identities/nodes, but also property inverses etc) and then search =

    around it for whatever your application is concerned with. =

    A common processing style is to treat it =

    as a black box that you'll rummage in with a particular goal in mind
    (eg. schoolHomepage and name and chatID). Typically you won't try to
    make use of every fragment of data you've hoarded, except to make it
    available to (human and machine) apps which may want to query for it. So
    RDF graph API and query languages are a key part of the puzzle... The
    Jena tutorial and Ian Davis's FOAF/PHP doc give some examples of the wa=
y =

    RDF tools allow such processing.
    =

    A point of FOAF was to have a way of freely mixing data about
    people with data about other things people care about, books, places, =

    restaurants, organisations, documents; things they're buying, selling, =

    interested in, describing... I fail to see how we can achive this
    without some conventions for free mixing of independently created
    vocabularies. But I do acknowledge that we have our work cut out
    figuring how to make these freedoms practical...
    =

    Dan
    =

    Dan
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