[foaf-protocols] report on EV and SSL MITM proxying
home_pw at msn.com
Tue Mar 8 18:28:54 CET 2011
Feel free to make it shorted for webid IX, if you want.
Folks need to get their head around the fact that one proxy (the corporate,
say) can collude with another at the ISP (say), which operates at the ISP
as the corporate's own firewall (much as the corporate operates a firewall
for its users' browsers). It's a cascade of proxies, and proxies can collude
(to build their mutual trust model, at the transport layer). This is all an
expression of long-term security policy doctrines for hwo to buiodl "trusted
networks", going back at least 30 years. it's even got a name: the
connection-oriented abstraction: the delivery of the illusion of end-end
connectivity, enabling global security policy for the entire net to control
local behaviors, because local agents can be trusted to enforce the global
rules on local interactions.
So, in our case, ISP re-signs server cert received from resource server,
for consumption on the (SSL )transport bridge between the 2 firewalls (ISP
to corporate). The final firewall in the chain (corporate) also re-signs the
server cert received from the firewall one up (which resigned the real
site), finally meeting the requirements trust anchors on the browser - which
now "just don't whine" to the user. After all, that all anyone really wants:
a "whine free" security policy.
Browser never knows that there were 2 handoffs (or more) between SSL MITMing
agents (acting quite property, or otherwise). It just presents an address
bar; a UI methaphor, where the user is supposed to trust the browser's root
store. In military office systems, the https browser doesn't do that of
course, since its root store is on the smartcard (not in the browser) -
there is no EV in military office systems, note (being a meaningless
assurance). The user has to trust the admin of the smartcard, whose file
contents (of trust anchors) are controlled by the LAN, in general. They can
change, each day, for all it matters; the browser just goes on saying: all
is good in the garden. Today, the CA is trusted (by the LAN), tomorrow it's
not. Users are blissfully unaware, and not involved in trust decision
If you are interested, go see Opera 11's latest marketing about its new
address bar, and how much "safer" the user now is - because some reputation
service (third party, I assume) qualifies the server cert. Though the user
may not bother to note the change of issuer name (and cert fingerprint) in
the really technical (and hard to find) cert dialog, presumably a reputation
web-service can - and now warn the user that the site is being spoofed by
(properly acting firewalls/SSL proxies) - given crowd-sourced inputs about
the true fingerprint of SSL certified sites. Won't be long before that
reputation service gets "assimilated" though!
While this all matters to us in the https scheme used in webid (since it
controls the integrity of the foaf card being evaluated by the RDF engine
enforcing the cert/rsa ontology), it also matters to use in the very
presentation of the client authn signature and supporting cert to the
resource server. This was Ryan's point (not me, the annoying one): perhaps
TLS client authn is inherently not viable, he asserted (since the proxies in
the chain canNOT merely vector upstream what the browser actually signed (2
hops back), since SSL handshake at the resource server detects the very act
of channel-tampering per its design in delivering what is called a
"connection integrity" security service).
Thus, to keep the world of transport proxies, sacrifice the viability of the
end-end client authn procedure of SSL. Its only viable in the local
intranet. To get further, one has to use websso intermediaries (just like
We are conflating 4 issues:
1. Consent to be notified of interception
2. UI issues and completeness against phishing
3. Proxies re-casting SSL domain-name endpoint certs
4. Proxies interfering with the delivery of client authn signature and
It's hard. But, this is the nature of https. Remember 2 things: it's not for
lack of trying that, 15 years later, client certs are still not viable in
the public space - because of proxies and their ability to setup crypto
tunnels that are not "intermediated"; and, the reality of https is not even
specified formally, mostly because nobody knows how, being such a complex
web of social/trust space topics that "evolved," rather than were designed.
But, 15 years later, it's all better than it was, point by point by point.
AS things go mainstream, there has to be consolidation, give and take,
relevant to a scale of 6 billion vs the 600 banks the technology was
supposed only to originally go to!
From: public-xg-webid-request at w3.org [mailto:public-xg-webid-request at w3.org]
On Behalf Of Henry Story
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 7:09 AM
To: peter williams
Cc: public-xg-webid at w3.org
Subject: Re: report on EV and SSL MITM proxying
On 8 Mar 2011, at 16:02, peter williams wrote:
I think we are about 60% understanding https.
You said that in the previous mail where I answered your points one by one.
We are understanding now that not only can the outgoing corporate firewall
be an attacker, so can any reverse proxy on the path. There may be n of
them. Each one is semantically-attacking the end-end user model of https,
just as each one has the poisoning document caches. (This is the security
way of looking at the web architecture J )
It can't be an attacker without putting a certificate on your machine, which
it can only do if the machine is owned by the same organisation as the one
that owns the firewall.
Can you answer this point, without a huge song and dance?
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